Damagosha Dasa – USA: There is one argument floating around that the “ritviks” are forcing Prabhupada to come back to this world to take new disciples and their karma, thru the system of ritvik initiations. Nothing could be further from the truth and we will attempt now to prove why this argument is wrong.
First of all,who can force Srila Prabhupada to do anything? This is ridiculous right off the start. Prabhupadas parents had to have about 5 people to hold him down just to get him to take some medicine when he was a child. His mother had to hire somebody to “make” Prabhupada go to school when he was a very young boy.
What to speak of any of us telling or forcing our spiritual master-“you must do this”!! He once told us that an astrologer read his palm lines and it said “this person, everyone else has to obey”. So nobody could or can force Srila Prabhupada to do anything. Even Krsna had to convince him to come here because he originally told Him, he did not want to come.
Secondly, when they say we (the ritviks) are forcing him to take the karma for thousands of new people, – then they are admitting that he can do it, that you dont need a physically living guru in front of you, otherwise how could he take on their karma if he is not physically present? This is just one of many foolish arguments that contradict the ritvik system of initiations that Srila Prabhupada has set up. Those people who say you must have a physically living person from whom to take initiation contradict themselves by this so called argument.
On the one hand they will say you can’t take initiation from Srila Prabhupada because he is dead and gone and that you must have a “living physically present body” from which to take diksa. And on the other hand in this argument they are saying we are forcing Prabhupada, who is not physically present (to them) to take on karma for thousands of new people, even without his sanction or knowledge or approval. This is very easy to understand the contradiction present.
Thirdly, if one needs a physically present guru, then why did Srila Prabhupada state that Christians today could accept Jesus as their guru if they followed his instructions?
Madhudvisa: Is there any way for a Christian to, without the help of a spiritual master, to reach the spiritual sky through believing in the words of Jesus Christ and trying to follow his teachings?
Prabhupada: I don’t follow.
Tamala Krsna: Can a Christian in this age, without a spiritual master, but by reading the Bible and following Jesus’s words, reach the…
Prabhupada: When you read Bible, you follow spiritual master. How can you say without? As soon as you read Bible, that means you are following the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ, that means you are following spiritual master. So where is the opportunity of being without spiritual master?
Madhudvisa: I was referring to a living spiritual master.
Prabhupada: Spiritual master is not the question of… Spiritual master is eternal. Spiritual master is eternal. So your question is without spiritual master. Without spiritual master you cannot be, at any stage of your life. You may accept this spiritual master or that spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that “by reading Bible,” when you read Bible that means you are following the spiritual master represented by some priest [ritvik] or some clergyman [ritvik] in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. So any case, you have to follow a spiritual master. There cannot be the question without spiritual master. Is that clear?
That intelligence you must have, who is a pseudo spiritual master or real spiritual master. Otherwise you’ll be cheated. And that is being done. Everyone is interpreting in his own way.
Prabhupada: He was protected. Devotees are not under the karma. In the Brahma-samhita it is stated, karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam. Prahlada Maharaja was tortured by his father in so many ways, but he was not affected. He was not affected.
Superficially… Just like in the Christian Bible also, that Lord Jesus Christ was tortured, but he was not affected. This is the difference between ordinary man and the devotees or transcendentalists. Apparently it is seen that a devotee is being tortured, but he is not tortured.
There is one example, nice example. Just like the cat. The cat carries the kitties in the mouth, and it carries a mouse also in the mouth. So apparently it is seen that a cat is carrying its kitties in the mouth means it is in pain. But it is not in pain. That is a fact. Rather, she feels very comfortable. You see? But when the cat, the same cat, catches one mouse, his life is gone. But you see that she is carrying in the mouth both of them.
Similarly, whenever you’ll find that a great devotee is placed into torturing condition, he does not feel. But the demon thinks that “I am torturing him.”
Prabhupada: But they are going to church, confessing every week, and doing the same thing. Who is a Christian, first of all find out, then Jesus Christ will take responsibility.
Devotee: They are gambling and eating flesh right in the churches, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: That’s all right, I mean to say, if you don’t follow the Christian principles, how you can claim yourself to become a Christian and how you can ask Jesus Christ to take responsibility for you? These are misleading, therefore people are coming disgusted. Otherwise Christian religion is all right. It teaches love of Godhead, teaches to become moral, it teaches to love people, that’s nice. These are good principles.
69-07-11.Jay Letter: Jayapataka
You have asked if it is true that the Spiritual Master remains in the material universe until all of His disciples are transferred to the Spiritual Sky. The answer is yes, this is the rule. Therefore, every student should be very … careful not to commit any offense which will be detrimental to this promotion to the Spiritual Kingdom, and thereby the Spiritual Master has to incarnate again to deliver him. This sort of mentality will be a kind of offense to the Spiritual Master.
Out of the ten kinds of offenses, the number one offense is to disobey the orders of the Spiritual Master. The instructions given to the disciple by the Spiritual Master at the time of initiation should
be strictly followed. That will make one advance to the spiritual path. But if one deliberately defies such instructions, then his advancement is hampered from the very beginning.
This defying means to disconnect the relationship with the Spiritual Master. And anyone who defies and therefore disconnects the relationship with the Spiritual Master can hardly expect the assistance of the Spiritual Master life after life. I hope this will clear up this question sufficiently for you.
CONCLUSIONS FROM ABOVE STATEMENTS
The above quotes show, especially the first one in Seattle Wa in a conversation amongst disciples who asked– if Jesus could help his new present day followers/disciples after he obviously is “gone” 2000 years later, from our vision.
Prabhupada explained that when one follows Jesus, which he explained to mean by reading the bible, that means you HAVE the assistance AND a spiritual master in the name and form of Jesus Christ. When you follow Jesus that means you have his assistance, so where is the question of being WITHOUT a spiritual master? Try and tell a somewhat serious Christian today that they don’t have any access to their guru Jesus Christ!! They will think you are nuts!!
For many this is very easy to understand, but for others, they just don’t get it yet. And the reason why? They don’t want to know why or how a bona fide guru can take on disciples after physically departing”. For these types of people, they are very unfortunate because they just don’t seem to understand how a bona fide Vaisnava can accept disciples without a physically present body.
Everything depends upon revelation and mercy from God. Prabhupada tells us the reason for this understand – misunderstand mentality, is simply getting or not getting the mercy of God. If one does not yet have a bona fide guru, this means he is either not serious enough, or Krsna has just not been kind to him.
In that same above conversation Prabhupada explains the ritvik system as a Christian would understand it. His disciples in the west are mostly converted Christians and Jews. This simply means a Christian today, right now, if he wants Jesus as his guru, then that person must follow, thru a local priest (or ritvik) all the teachings of Jesus. How does he do this? By reading the bible and following, as explained thru a priest (ritvik priest) of Jesus Christ).
So today we have many so called disciples of Srila Prabhupada, who say they love him, and accept him as their “guru”, but who do not even chant the promised 16 rounds a day nor do they follow the regulative principles. So in this case, how can they EVER expect to get his assistance (as he states above) or understand something so confidential as guru tattva in this contaminated sinful state? And yet they will argue forever with us about these spiritual matters. By their daily disobedience to their guru they have disconnected their link to Prabhupada which he states clearly in this conversation.
And why do they continue to argue with us? Sentimentality. No knowledge, no sadhana bhakti, just lip service to their guru, Srila Prabhupada who they “keep as a fashion”.
Better to understand guru tattva from those who are trying to follow the teachings, practice them daily, and are humble enough to continue to try to teach others the same.